[The T]

I'm sure there are a lot of you who don't know who the hell I am. Well. I lurk in #soniccenter a lot, and that's about it.

But I came up with this whole idea for a card game, and I guess I'm really looking for people who would be interested in helping form it. It's basically just a glint in my eye, but if there's anyone out there who wants to beta test or help design it or anything, I'm looking for all the help I can get.

I talked to RPG on MSN, and later IRC, and got some basic form of it down. Since rephrasing it all would be a lot of work, feel free to muck around this and discover my idea for a little game.

[MSN, reformatted to IRC style to make it readable:]
<The_T> I have this idea in my head for a card game that. I want to make. Like, even just as an app for LackeyCCG or something. Do you know of anyone who would be interested in helping me develop it and won't give me shit about my ideas being stupid?
<RPG> well off hand I dont know anyone but ill gladly listen to anything atm
<The_T> Hmm. I don't know where to begin.
<The_T> I've had this idea for like, forever. But.
<The_T> The idea would be that it would revolve around video games, in a kind of multi-versal way.
Have you ever played the Star Wars CCG, by chance?
<RPG> Alas not
<The_T> Okay, well.
<The_T> The idea could be that both players play out "Levels", which would be... essentially, stages from video games. Or they could, tracks from racing games, or multiplayer arenas from FPS, or minigames from Mario Party. Things like that.
<The_T> And they would also play characters who have... this part I'm still undecided on the best way to handle it, but some kind of stat systems that makes certain characters more able to complete certain types of Levels.
<The_T> And there would be some light randomization as well as stat-enhancement cards such that any Character would be able to overcome any challenge eventually.
<RPG> Yeah I see what you mean
[snip]
<The_T> Another idea about Levels would be
<The_T> that each card has a Difficulty level, so at the start of the game, you can only play cards with low difficulties. Like, the first card must have a difficulty of one or two. And then each card after that must have +/- 3 or so difficulty. So you could play a card of difficulty 2, then 4, then 5, then 3, then 6, etc.
That number isn't set in stone, but.
<The_T> Basically it would make a sort of game board out of cards.
<The_T> And of course, some things like Fighting game stages would work way differently, with focus on character VS character interaction.
[snip, switch to IRC because MSN is gaying out:]
[18:09] <The_T> so um, yeah. And I guess the idea would be, that the way you complete certain stages or things will affect your Score, which would be like the opposite of Life in... I'm going to say Yu-Gi-Oh 'cause I don't know a lot about card games. I think Magic has something like that too but if I'm wrong then I'm wrong.
[18:10] <Fixed> Magic has life, yeah
[18:10] <The_T> Like. The objective would be to get a certain end score or have a higher score when the game ends. But the rest of the details need to be worked out.
[18:10] <Fixed> Right
[18:10] <The_T> And so both players would play levels on the same "Level line" or "board" or what have you.
[18:10] <The_T> I guess what really needs to be figured out is how to handle characters.
[18:11] <Fixed> Yeah
[18:11] <The_T> I think there could also be things like weapons, and icons on characters to represent the types of weapons they can use. So Link can have a little sword icon and then he can use swords from basically any game, but certain swords could be like "Only usable by Link".
[18:11] <The_T> like the Master Sword, maybe.
[18:11] <The_T> Ooh, and sidequests.
[18:11] <Fixed> Yarr
[18:11] <The_T> Things that could add a little bit to your score but also give you a benefit.
[18:12] <The_T> Like let you use the Biggoron Sword, concepts like that.
[18:12] <The_T> But yes. Any /clue/ on how to do Characters, then. 'cause I've got nothing.
[18:13] <Fixed> erm
[18:13] <Fixed> give them like
[18:13] <Fixed> HP
[18:13] <The_T> Hmm. That's iffy.
[18:13] <Fixed> maybe attack and defence stats
[18:13] <The_T> 'cause, I want characters to play exactly like they do.
[18:13] <Fixed> and you roll x dice
[18:13] <Fixed> for hits and shit
[18:13] <Fixed> iono
[18:13] <The_T> So platform characters should die easily, have power-ups to extend their life, and go back to the same stage they were already on [or maybe a stage back?] when they die.
[18:14] <The_T> While RPG characters will have HP and have to go back farther [to the last place with a Save Point card] when they die.
[18:15] <The_T> But then I'm worried about bogging it down with too many stats.
[18:16] <Fixed> True
[18:16] <The_T> So what I should probably do is make a list of genre-defining characters
[18:17] <The_T> note all their important stats
[18:17] <The_T> and make a "best of" type list.
[18:17] <Fixed> Indeed

So I'm basically looking for any kind of advice at all on this, and if anyone wants to help, well. If your ideas clash with my mind, I probably won't use your help. But, if they work out, then all the better. So. Any thoughts?

[General Throatstomper]

I do like the idea, but execution will get sticky. I recall a similar excursion (sort of) attempt at a Sonic card-style game (using the gcgsomething program) that failed because of too many ideas. Don't get hung up on thinking of so many maverick ideas that the game goes nowhere.

I think there is more potential if you allow a second (or third even) player to play the "bad guy" role, controlling cards. Obviously their method of operation would be a touch different...they would be given cards that are immediately powerful (not overwhelmingly so, mind, the other player deserves a chance) but that will not be upgradeable. The problem with this is that a hero could become overpowered due to a poor level on the part of the bad guy. To counter this you'd either need to buff the bad guy's cards, nerf the hero from level to level, or cripple their potential powerups...we'll deal with this later though.

For now I think we need to assemble a development team though. It will be abhorrently hard to piggyback on any existing ui's (unless we try making this an IRC script)...I think we'll need to invent a new interface, which will take coders and artists. If you know someone interested in this project then contact them. We may see some support from TSC as well, since there are some talented (plural word). Personally I'm on board, but I'm only really able to help with theoretics and writing if any is required.

I don't have much else to say now but I know there's more I could-cut me some slack, I'm very tired.

[yse]

You might want to talk to SBW - he's tried to do something similar a couple of times but never really got off the ground.

I'm probably not much help, sorry :/

[eggFL]

I can totally offer help on designing the game. After all I invented three seperate card games in my life, the most recent of which was NOT based on Sonic. (or any existing IP for that matter) I also loved making up Magic cards on ccgdecks.com. So anyway yea I think I have a good sense for this plus I would enjoy discussing it. :D

We should probably go ahead and create cards in Magic Workstation OR another application, and then we get a test group together, and play and work out the rules as well as create more cards. (for the record, trying to create cards on MWS is an enigmatic process, and I did not find anyone who knew how to use it either, or any guides on the subject, so if anyone knows a better application as I'm sure somebody does since I am an MWS fanboy, then let's go ahead and use that instead. Also there's Apprentice which we can use if we are willing to lower our aesthetic standards)

ok I'll start by simply going organizing and over the elements you wanted in the game:

 1) Stages/Level cards. Based on videogame environments, sequences, challenges, or minigames. Character cards would have to progress through these or complete these in some manner. Stage cards would need relevant stats so that they would favor certain types of characters more than others.
     - The stage cards laid out would essentially create a gauntlet, like a board. (potentially a maze?)
     - Stage cards would have difficulty levels which affects the order in which they can be placed. Some stages would be deliberately "tougher" than others, denoted by their difficulty level, meaning they might have tougher stats.
     - Completing stages would earn score.
     - Players win by earning a higher score than their opponent(s).
     -  Sidequests? These could either be optional part of the stage cards, or be another type of card themselves. (I think an add-on card that attaches to a stage is a good solution. Then there could also be cards that are mandatory side-quests, to slow down opponents.)


 2) Character cards. Characters from various videogames. Each would have their own strengths/weaknesses, and stats representing their ability to complete various types of stage cards.
     - Weapon cards. These would benefit the equipped character in some way. Each character card would also be marked with what types of weapons they can use. (Besides weapons, maybe the weapon cards can also be various tools like a hammer or misc. videogame items like fire flower. The items may be called something besides weapons, or they can all have the same name, like "enhancement card")
     - Each character's life system and death penalty would reflect that of their actual games they originate from.
     - Save points. Players can save at certain levels. (using a save point card or some other means) In order to reduce the severity of a character death. Only certain types of characters would rely on save points.


... Ok cool, that's something to chew on. I'll see what I come up with and post later.

[The T]

I think there is more potential if you allow a second (or third even) player to play the "bad guy" role, controlling cards. Obviously their method of operation would be a touch different...they would be given cards that are immediately powerful (not overwhelmingly so, mind, the other player deserves a chance) but that will not be upgradeable. The problem with this is that a hero could become overpowered due to a poor level on the part of the bad guy. To counter this you'd either need to buff the bad guy's cards, nerf the hero from level to level, or cripple their potential powerups...we'll deal with this later though.

I briefly considered that idea [taking a node from the Star Wars CCG], but then balance would be even more of an issue. I think making it so both players are playing characters for themselves and enemies to combat the other player would work out best.

For now I think we need to assemble a development team though. It will be abhorrently hard to piggyback on any existing ui's (unless we try making this an IRC script)...I think we'll need to invent a new interface, which will take coders and artists. If you know someone interested in this project then contact them. We may see some support from TSC as well, since there are some talented (plural word). Personally I'm on board, but I'm only really able to help with theoretics and writing if any is required.

The reason I picked LackeyCCG is that it's really rather robust and not designed with any one card game in mind. In my opinion it works rather well and leaves us open to do anything. It can also support more than 2 players, and has a few other interesting features.

You might want to talk to SBW - he's tried to do something similar a couple of times but never really got off the ground.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but... who's SBW? =(

The stage cards laid out would essentially create a gauntlet, like a board. (potentially a maze?)

I'm actually torn about this one. I think for certain sets, like based on linear platformers, the board will be very linear. But for other games, like Metroidvania-esque ones, the board could be maze-like. And of course, if one player is playing a Mario deck and the other a Metroid deck... there's going to be rules on how those boards can be and it will most likely be odd. But neat, I'd hope.

The rest of your thoughts are basically a good summary of what I have down. I think the areas that need buffing are just /how/ stats should work and what kind of stat tests or the like should be in place, since having a D&D-style "die roll to beat" seems like it'd be lame and boring. I'd like to come up with a creative system for it but I just don't have any clues. Also, some kind of combat system that could work with multiple styles of games. Something not too simple but not too complex, so that Mario can fight a Goomba as well as so Ryu can fight Ken.

Anyone think it would be worthwhile to start brainstorming important characters and genres from gaming history?

[ieatatsonic]

My mind usually swarms with ideas. I could think of some good ones.
Now, for important characters....


Fox Mcloud might be an idea. Mario and Link have been brought up(along with Samus) and it's obvious Sonic would be one, but if you want important, try Alex Kidd(he was almost gonna be Sega's mascot!).
Cloud and Sephroth from Final Fantasy would work.

Now, for the "enhancement cards"...

I actually think enhancement sounds a lot like equip, like in Yu-Gi-Oh, but that doesn't matter.
Besides weapons, wouldn't there be power-ups(Mario could use any of his, and so could sonic. And kirby?? He could just use copy abilities if he got in)?
As for weapons, a few characters that would work would be Fox, Cloud, and Sepheroth.


This whole "board" thing sounds a bit like the dungeon dice monsters in the Yu-Gi-Oh anime.

I'm not a good artist, but I'm very imaginative, so I can probably think up many things, but this is the only way I can communicate.

[General Throatstomper]

Those are some wonked out ideas ieatatsonic. Here are the most noteworth 'oldschool' franchises in gaming as I see them along with who would be represented. I listed multiple characters for some games that have a few memorables...maybe we want to give the player a few choices on who to use?

Mario (Mario, Yoshi, Luigi)
Sonic (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles)
Metroid
Megaman
Pokemon (Pikachu, Lucario, Munchlax, etc. Take your pick of all 493)
Street Fighter (Ryu, Ken, Akuma, etc.)
Final Fantasy (Oh christ. Cloud comes to mind immediately, but there are other protagonists worth considering)
Castlevania (Simon Belmont, Erik Lecard, Alucard, etc.)
Zelda

And the 'modern' series of note:

Halo
Phoenix Wright
Guitar Hero (Grim Reaper...comedy option Slash, etc.)
Katamari Damacy
God of War
Fire Emblem (only really got popular recently, hence the listing here)
Smash Bros. (It's certainly a different way to play)
Metal Gear
Resident Evil (Leon, Claire, Chris, etc.)

I'm probably forgetting some important franchises...but hey. I'll think more about how we'll actually handle levels tomorrow, I'm very tired you know.

[eggFL]

ok lackeyccg, so I guess we can use that, I'll look into it when the time comes

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but... who's SBW? =(

Spinballwizard, aka Spearow. He lives in a volcano.

I'm actually torn about this one. I think for certain sets, like based on linear platformers, the board will be very linear. But for other games, like Metroidvania-esque ones, the board could be maze-like. And of course, if one player is playing a Mario deck and the other a Metroid deck... there's going to be rules on how those boards can be and it will most likely be odd. But neat, I'd hope.

ok I gave this a lot of thought actually... so I guess there would be two kinds of stages.. action stages, and adventure stages. Action stages would be in a line, but adventure stages can be placed adjacent to another stage and create branching paths. I've pretty much figured this part out, but then damn me I thought of a third type of stage I think should be in the game, and now I'm confused. I was thinking of "hub stage" cards which would be like Peach's Castle or Station Square. These may not even be worth any points, basically they are not missions, but the idea was that they would allow action stages to be placed adjacent to them.

Also, as for attachment cards, you can attach "warp zones" onto a level, which lets characters skip spaces.

Also, some kind of combat system that could work with multiple styles of games. Something not too simple but not too complex, so that Mario can fight a Goomba as well as so Ryu can fight Ken.

Ok so characters have to be able to fight each other too. Makes sense... ok that's something to think about.

maybe if, rules-wise, characters counted as pseudo stage cards if two of them fight. If characters can work the same was as stages, then that's already an elegant way to handle character vs. character combat.

Anyone think it would be worthwhile to start brainstorming important characters and genres from gaming history?

Yea... sounds good to me. That way we can decide on a gameplay system that suits them all.

Here's what I'm thinking: Mario, Sonic, Zelda, Metroid, Final Fantasy (for all intents and purposes: FF7), Street Fighter, Halo, Metal Gear, Star Fox.

..that covers platformer, adventure, JRPG, fighting, shooter, and RTS... and with those by extension you have rules that apply to action games, Western RPG's, and turn-based strategy games.

Metal Gear is a crucial series because it will be how we decide to handle stealth.

Star Fox or something is also important because it will be how he handle flight... in other words, vehicles.

I initially listed Command & Conquer, but I took it off, because we might not need that either, since it is not really character based, and I take it this is more like "Smash Bros TCG". But let me know.

I doubt this CCG needs to cover racers, puzzle games, and music games... though racing and puzzle COULD work if we really want them in there. (Tetris would make the sweetest "joke" faction)

You wanted different characters to have life/death systems that represent their genre.

So that would mean:

Sonic would have 1 Hp and have some sort of regrowable 1-time defense because of rings. Sonic would use 1-ups.

Mario for the sake of development will be oldschool and have 1 Hp but can get one-time shields that also increase his abilities. Shouldn't be hard to implement.

Ryu and Ken would have HP and their continues would have a cost. (example: discard 1 card)

Cloud would have HP and rely on save points, same with Samus. Link however doesn't need save points, and has free continues. If damage isn't permanent in this game, then Master Chief would work just like Link. But besides permanent damage, there is the question of a growth system. (i.e. Link/Samus/Cloud able to increase their health capacity. Sounds like it's really complicating the game, but in all honesty it would be kind of cool, if we figure out a way to pull it off)

Solid Snake would work like Link I guess.

genus named Pheonix Wright, which is a great idea... and completely unconventional

[magnum12]

In terms of FF characters who are better than Cloud (FF7 is overrated and Cloud is a spiky haired emo), there's Cecil, Sabin, Edgar, Edge, etc.

We could also have slots on the card space dedicated to a character's type, innate element, alignment and gender to give more options in terms of deck design. With this system, you could classify Sonic as a male, wind (just as an example), hero, humanoid character. Also with this example, you could add an effect to Shadow that causes him to become enraged (gives attack and defense bonus as long as he has rage counters on him) whenever a light element female character (the Maria effect) ally is destroyed by the opponent. He would get 3 rage counters (rage counters are removed during each of the player's turns after the effect goes off and recover when enraged characters destroy an enemy character) to use, including spending rage counters to use the Chaos Blast special move.

[eggFL]

FF7 is overrated hugely popular, that's why it's the first choice for the ccg. Without FF7 you're really reaching for popular characters from the series, because none of the other games are close to being as liked as FF7. And yea duh he's a spiky haired emo, you say that as if it's a bad thing. Cecil is a good choice though, since he is being remade on the DS and he is pretty neat...

But uhh anyway... if we start putting Maria effect on cards, we are asking to be swamped with text and superfluous abilities. However the Maria was just an example. The slots might be a good idea, it can add a lot when it comes to specific interactions.

gender - might as well, it takes up very little space (and you never know when that can come in handy..?)
innate element - ok but I imagine most characters wouldn't have any element here. But for Pokemon and etc it would come in handy.
alignment - so basically, hero or villain? or maybe in-between
type - what kind of types would there be besides humanoid? animals and what else?

[Stefan]

You can choose multiple characters from each genre. Nobody said it has to be just 1 a genre.

Just a little idea. >_>

[magnum12]

Types (early build): Humanoid, machine (Mega Man), undead, demon, angel, elemental (anything primarily made of something that could be classified as an element such as fire, earth, water), plant, beast, alien, etc.
Elements: Earth, fire, water (includes ice), air, electric, light, dark, none
Alignment: In between characters could be put into either a hero or villian deck. This would also include non-evil adversaries of the character. An example would be MMZ2 and 3 Harpuia. Sure he opposes the resistance and is harsh, but at least his motives (protect humanity from those who would bring them harm even if he is wrong wrong in believing that the resistance is a legitimate threat to humans) are noble. He also refuses to do anything that deliberately endangers innocent lives (such as the missile attack in Z3) and rather die than be corrupted by evil power.

No, the actual text would not actually say "Maria Effect". That is merely a description as an in game example of a trigger. Pay Attention. There should still be effects on characters.

Sure FF7 is a good game, but it is not the "holy grail of all RPGs" that the fanboys would like to tell you, complete with an overrated villian with a big sword (Kefka is a WAY better villian). I can think of several better RPGs (FF4, FF6, KOTOR, Disgaea, SMRPG, etc). Cloud being an emo jerk with a big sword is a bad thing because he is guilty of starting the whole "mainstream emo antihero" trend that seems popular with RPGs as of late. I'd go so far as to say that Laharl is a parody of this kind of "protagonist" Cecil is the good way to do a "dark" protagonist. He's been through hell and has done things he's not proud of but unlike Cloud, his past hasn't turned him into a selfish emo jerk. While still real grim and serious, Cecil is still a good person at heart who fights for what's right, moves foward with his life and attempts to atone for his past mis deeds.

[Spinballwizard]

Hey look who showed up. >_>

I'll skim the topic a little more thoroughly later (as my mind's on Hordes right now), but I'll offer my $0.02.

1. Difficulty as a resource to play cards I don't like, as it seems too generic. (Excuse me if I read this wrong). I suggest a "loyalty" resource system. Two ways this can be done. One can be genre-based (so Sonic and Mario could be bunched into platform, Pokemon and FF can go into RPG, etc. For the sake of argument, Smash Bros. can go with fighting.) Another could be developer- or console-based. For instance, "Sega" resources could be used for Sonic or Monkey Ball stuff (for example), "Nintendo" for Mario/Pokemon/Smash Bros, "Square" for FF, etc. It'd probably need more fine tuning but it forces players to stick to a particular archetype instead of piling good cards together.

2. Alternatively, you might want to bunch stuff together because it looks like you have a lot there. For instance, a base set called "old skool" (should be changed, obviously) that contains stuff from older Sonic/Mario/Mega Man. Then maybe an expansion of "sequels" or "new school" as things go along if it starts to take off.

Maybe more later. :o

(PS: Also yeah my 2 Sonic ideas kinda never took off. Sorta blew up in the hangar.)

[eggFL]

Sure FF7 is a good game, but it is not the "holy grail of all RPGs" that the fanboys would like to tell you, complete with an overrated villian with a big sword (Kefka is a WAY better villian). I can think of several better RPGs (FF4, FF6, KOTOR, Disgaea, SMRPG, etc). Cloud being an emo jerk with a big sword is a bad thing because he is guilty of starting the whole "mainstream emo antihero" trend that seems popular with RPGs as of late. I'd go so far as to say that Laharl is a parody of this kind of "protagonist" Cecil is the good way to do a "dark" protagonist. He's been through hell and has done things he's not proud of but unlike Cloud, his past hasn't turned him into a selfish emo jerk. While still real grim and serious, Cecil is still a good person at heart who fights for what's right, moves foward with his life and attempts to atone for his past mis deeds.

I don't even like FF7. But it's automatically in this. This ccg is supposed to be based on all game/series, something is not gonna be excluded just because someone doesn't like it. Also if this game is really going to go anywhere, then its popularity is kinda relevant, and having FF7 decks could drastically add interest. AND THUS SAVING TSC.

That said, Cecil would make an interesting card considering his whole transformation in the story.

Disgaea is a great suggestion too. It's another interesting RPG franchise.

No, the actual text would not actually say "Maria Effect".

well... obviously not. Although I can see why you would think that's what I thought.

But I was saying, having Shadow's Maria complex in SA2 turned into an ability is getting a bit too obscure. We might as well try to have that, chaos spear, chaos control, chaos blast, Sonic06 chaos snap, Super Shadow, guns, and vehicle abilities all on the same card.

What we could do however is as is common in many TCG's, have multiple versions of characters. For example we can dedicate one Shadow card to one facet of his abilities, let's say chaos powers... make another version based on his SA2 appearance and focuses on speed.. etc.

1. Difficulty as a resource to play cards I don't like, as it seems too generic. (Excuse me if I read this wrong).

I don't know what you mean by that. X(

I suggest a "loyalty" resource system. Two ways this can be done. One can be genre-based (so Sonic and Mario could be bunched into platform, Pokemon and FF can go into RPG, etc. For the sake of argument, Smash Bros. can go with fighting.) Another could be developer- or console-based. For instance, "Sega" resources could be used for Sonic or Monkey Ball stuff (for example), "Nintendo" for Mario/Pokemon/Smash Bros, "Square" for FF, etc. It'd probably need more fine tuning but it forces players to stick to a particular archetype instead of piling good cards together.

I was thinking that consistency in decks would come sorta naturally as players would want to gear their decks toward the types of stages they want to earn points from. IDEALLY, characters from JRPG's would be better at completing stages from JRPG's in some way.

Also, it should be all genre based, and then franchise based. No old-school/new-school based, and company alignment, should not matter. Except maybe a few companies, only because they would count as franchises. I am obviously thinking of Nintendo and pretty much only Nintendo when I say this, if even.

Good discussion everyone! I'll add more later.

[magnum12]

You could also have all of Shadow's powers via the effects of equip cards. For example, with certain numbers of Chaos Emeralds on the field or in your hand, you could unlock various powers. For example, Chaos Control requires 1, Chaos Spear requires 2, and Chaos Boost requires three. You would have to equip the special attacks onto Shadow (with the previous requirements in mind. Super forms could be done with a super form card that requires you to discard all chaos emeralds you have on the field and in your hand. The weapons could be mere equip cards. All of this could produce Shadow deck variants that while powerful, are quite suspectable to cards that destroy support cards or hand disruption strategies.

For general card stats, we should also have a small section on the card's effect that gives general special properties such as flying, long range, swimmer etc. Characters with flying would be immune to ground based traps and attacks that don't come from characters with Long Range or flying would suffer a penalty but would have to suffer some sort of weakness (cost, stats, other) to be balanced.

Here's an example card

Name: Harpuia
Type: Machine, flying
Gender: Male
Element: Wind (yes I know he's lighting in MMZ, but his moves are closer to the wind element)
Alignment: None
Effect: Whenever a machine type character controlled by the opponent inflicts damage upon a humanoid character you control, place one Maverick counter on the attacking character. Harpuia gets a bonus to attack and defense against cards with Maverick counters.

This card is very effective against decks with a lot of machine characters (Eggman decks) but is very weak against humanoid heavy decks.
Drawback: This card cannot target characters with the humanoid subtype.

[General Throatstomper]

It doesn't matter what you want Magnum, it matters what we think other people will want. And FF7 is the definitive Final Fantasy game, love it or hate it. But it's not as though we need to limit ourselves to one hero character per series. Get over it!

You're also making the game overly complex. Elements should only be a factors in the games where they were in the original because that's what we want this to be...why does the fact that Mario is a human of type (x) mean he does (x) damage by default? Mario didn't play that way, so we won't need to have it, or want to have it because you're bogging the game down with cumbersome details.

I'm still forming a few ideas which I'll post tomorrow. It's all in the wording.

Until then I have a question we need to consider. How long do we want this to take?

[eggFL]

How long do we want this to take... you mean like.. how long should a game take to play?

Well ideally I guess it should be long enough to create an intimidating board (like the attachment in my last post) with the game ending not too long afterwards.

We can always increase/decrease the score bonuses and winning requirements to tweak game length...

Anyway I had some ideas for actual gameplay!

OK here it is. Characters would have the following two stats: Power and Agility

Mario might be a 3 Power, 3 Agility
Sonic might be a 2 Power, 6 Agility
Cloud might be a 4 Power, 6 Agility
Link might be a 1 Power, 1 Agility (and use tons of items to increase stats or circumvent the need for stats)

They would of course also have HP and any keyword attributes. (flying, but I was also thinking of hi-jump being an ability, but maybe not)

Stages would have a Power and Agility requirement. Bo-bomb Battlefield might have a requirement of 3 Power, 2 Agility, thus Mario could complete it, Sonic can't. If Mario is on the stage and his player chooses to tackle it (assuming it isn't mandatory) then Mario would win, the player gets points. If Sonic's player enters the stage, Sonic would die or take damage.

So let's say you are a Sonic player who is on this stage. You're screwed, right?

However, you can play a "Variable Card" a one-time card that alters the situation for that stage or battle.

For example you may play a variable card named Five Secret Disks, and the effect of that card would reduce the Power requirement of a stage for that encounter. Just an example.

That way Sonic completes the stage.

Moving on. There could be a stage, Radical Highway. It could be a power requirement of 1, an agility requirement of 6. But a stage can have other requirements listed on the card. For example, Radical Highway may require the keyword "speed" attribute. Sonic and Shadow would have this, so they can complete it. A motorcycle would add the speed attribute to a character, so if Cloud or another character has a motorcycle, he can also complete Radical Highway.

Score bonus - In addition to the normal reward for beating a stage, stages would have additional score bonuses if you meet optional requirements. For example, Radical Highway can have an addition bonus "Gold Beetle - 1000 extra points for agility 7 or higher"

Other effects - I thought of this just now. I was thinking, can stages damage a character. Ideally they would. How to handle this. One of two ways. a) characters that are below the minimum requirements for a stage can still complete the stage, but would take damage to equal to the difference between their P/A stats and the stage's requirement. b) A stage would have written on it how much damage it deals to a character if their stats aren't higher than a certain amount.

I am thinking choice a is very viable... it's more elegant. It also means anyone can complete any stage, and high HP becomes a very relevant stat that can overcome shortcomings in power/agility.

Another way is that HP can make up for Power, whereas Agility is still a mandatory requirement. In other words, if you have a stage that requires 5 Agility, 3 Power, and your character has 3 Agility, 1 Power, your character can't complete the stage. HOWEVER if the stage is listed the opposite: 3 Agility, 5 Power, then your character can complete it, but would take 4 damage in the process.

That is good! That is good because Power and Agility now do different things!

Anyway, how about character vs. character combat. My idea for combat is kinda straightforward. Initiating a fight with another character would deal damage to each character equal to the total Power/Agility of that character subtracted from the opponent's character. So if a 3/6 character fought a 2/3 character, the 2/3 would lose 5 HP. If the losing character has 12 HP, then the attacker would have attack three times in order to kill it.

Either or both players would be able to play variable cards to affect the battle. Each player would play one variable card face down for each attack. This is where negative-effect variable cards come into play.

Finally, I think you would be able to play variable cards on stages in advance, face down under a stage card. Either that, or you should be able to play variable cards at the exact time your opponent does a mission. In other words, both players can play variable cards whenever either of them does a mission, in order to mess them up.

So... what do you all think.

[Bilan]

With the mention of variable cards to slow them down, I totally nominate "Idiot NPC"

By which they run into them and get slowed down some arbitrary amount

[The T]

Sorry guys, sorta spaced/got distracted by other things but I'm here again.

I was thinking the best way to handle winning/losing would be to add an element of randomness. For eggFL's example...

Mario would automatically be able to clear Bob-omb Battlefield. Sonic, on the other hand, would have to roll a dice and... compare stats in some sense. I'm actually really bad at creating those kind of systems, so if anyone has experience with that, then, yeah.

But basically, if he is able to roll high enough, then he completes it. If not, he takes damage or is hindered in some other way.

That way, the idea would be to play [so-called] "variable cards" in order to better your chances.

Thinking about it again, I guess the way to do the dice system would be one of two ways:

1. To have two sets of values on the stage card: One set is for how many a character needs to instantly complete it, and then the other is the value for characters who can't complete it in this way, and would be the value they need to acquire of [their stat + die roll].

2. Instead, we just use die with really small amounts, like a 4-sided die.

Alternately, if anyone has a better way to do it, I'm all for it since neither of these ideas really do anything for me.

I agree that bogging down the game with stats that aren't relevant to the original characters is a bad idea.

I also feel that certain games should be left out at first, but that, as much as I do hate Final Fantasy VII, it probably should be in the Base Set.

I was planning for all sets [except Base] to be based around one game only. And by one game, I mean, a "Super Mario Bros. 3" set and the like. But the Base Set will be a bigger set to start things off.

I do want there to be things from Racing, Puzzle, all sorts of other genres. But probably not have this in the base set. Probably not have Vehicles in the base set either. But leave these kind of weird things for future expansions. Leave Pokémon for an expansion, and be able to make a somewhat complex capture system for it that can be used for games like Dragon Quest Monsters and the like as well.

Definetly try to keep as much of the gameplay as faithful to the orignal games as possible.

Power-ups should be able to used by [probably] anyone. Or at least, all platformer characters should be able to use platform power-ups, or, instead, say... power-ups like Super Mushrooms can only be used by PCs with 1 HP.

Ah, that's another idea. We could refer to all Hero-type characters as PCs, and enemies as... well, enemies.

I still think there could be slightly more stats than just Power and Agility, because then characters would become too similar.

I actually kind of dislike having card-text like what magnum is suggesting, but I'm not sure where else to go in making characters different from each other.

I was also thinking some kind of "Skill" stat that could decide how well characters are able to accomplish certain thought-related things. For magic-users, it could be set really high, for example.

Thanks for all the brain-storming guys, this actually looks like it might turn out pretty decent. We just have to remember some important concepts: We want to make a game that is playable, fun, and balanced. That is more important than anything else.

[The T]

Sorry for double posting, but more ideas I had:

Enemies would add certain stats or conditions to stages. Like a Goomba would make the Power requirement go up by 1. Or those flying Buzzy Beetles that you can use as platforms in Super Mario Bros. 3 might make the speed requirement go down but the skill requirement up [not sure, it made sense in my head but now I think it needs something different].

Enemies would affect both players.

It would also be possible for there to be ways to dispatch enemies before you attempt a stage, so that you can make it easier to complete the stage again. So it would come down to:

1. Having a way for your character to defeat enemies.

2. Having cards to dispatch enemies in other ways.

3. Taking on the level with the challenge of the enemies in tact.

I think it makes for an interesting game mechanic but I'm not sure how well it fits the theme. If anyone wants to make some touches up to it, I'm all for it.

What other stats would be good? I think Mario should have high skill, average power and speed. Sonic should be high speed, high-average skill, low-average power. Things like that. But there should be more to it as well. We need to come up with some weird and unusual circumstances, but my brain is fried at the moment.

[Bilan]

A card involving a group of sheep in the way!

[The T]

A card involving a group of sheep in the way!

What video game is that from? *rolls eyes*

[Bilan]

Er, Overlord?